RPG Crosstalk

I chat with Ryan Macklin about how he created an internet presence! It is super awesome and Ryan is fantastic. He has some rules he tries to abide by and always charms. Let me know what you think! 

LISTEN HERE!

This was an awesome episode! 

Heya Jenn,

I loved the episode.  I'd like to hear you talk more about why you like Twitter, if you could.  Does the character limit ever bother you?  Or the speed at which conversations seem to take place?

Peace,

-Troy

There are many reasons why I like twitter. The character limit never really bothers me. If I want to talk to someone more in depth I will dm them and ask for their email address (if I don't have it) or send a couple DM messages. 

The speed at which conversations take place can vary depending how many people you follow. My twitter feed FLIES by especially during the lunch time hours it seems. I can leave the computer or phone and come back to 200 messages in 30  minutes. If I'm busy and don't have time to check twitter that's okay too. I don't like going back through past twitters - there are just too many. I will go back through the new posts if I'm sitting at a computer but I don't go home at the end of the day to read twitter for hours on end. 

I like being able to add people if someone is tweeting about them within a conversation. It's a great way to promote yourself if you have a show or a project. Not only do you have to follow people but you have to have people follow you if you want to form that community - esp. for a podcast. I do like Ryan's rule for not writing hate stuff. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but you have to be careful on twitter because it can come across wrong. You just have to keep that in mind and have fun. 

Twitter is where all my gaming friends are and I get to interact with all of them during the day. Early in the morning to late at night. I can ask a silly question and I get a response from someone which is always nice. It's like getting snail mail but much faster. 

It is all about personal preference. Some people like facebook more, or using other media sites. I just like twitter and also I can get it on my phone at the touch of a button.

Heya,

Yeah, Ryan's rules for Internet interaction are really good.  I plan on adopting them myself.  I believe there is a place for critique and satire, but not in a community-based arena like forums and Twitter.  This was a very practical show, Jenn.  I really enjoyed it.

Peace,

-Troy

Great interview and great discussions on the show, Jenn. I'm definitely going to go back and listen to your library or shows, now.

Now, I really need to find out who this Macklin guy is. I keep hearing his name over and over, but know nothing about the dude. This interview made me feel like he's got his head on straight and a good guy. Definitely someone I'd be interested in meeting.

And, he has good advice.

I really disagreed with Ryan's rant about mediocrity near the end of the show. I posted my reply here because it would have been a little too long for this thread and I dont want to threadjack it.

http://statecraftgsrpg.blogspot.com/2011/02/disagreeing-with-ryan-macklin.html

I liked the episode. I'm trying to build more "internet presence" myself, but doing it the long, slow way is definitely not easy.

I'm not a fan of the "forums are toxic" theory that Ryan and some other people subscribe to -- I think that just gives cover to people who are obnoxious on forums. It's perfectly possible to have constructive conversations on forums.

The rant about mediocrity that didn't name any names came across as kind of passive-aggressive to me. I'm not a fan of mediocrity either, and can see the point that "halo effects" of elements of greatness can mask weak points in games. I wish that there was more of a culture of open and honest critique in the community so that people could talk about these things without defensiveness, snarkiness, hyperbole, or blanket generalizations.

@greg 

I went to your blog and read your reply. I can post something there too but I'm formulating this as I write. I agree that most people who want to write a game might not be able to afford an editor or a layout person. If listen to episode 5 with Daniel Solis and Adam Dray they talk about how when they were getting started with rpg editing and layout they would do it for free or cheaper than most editors to gain experience. I think if you are a game designer you can reach out to new editors and layout people and try to find connections with those who will do it for the experience and not for the money. I know that this may not end up being possible but it is worth a shot. 

Even if one can't pay someone to edit their work I still think they should get someone to read through it, a friend, a coworker, a gaming buddy. I'm not an editor but I am willing to read through a friend's game or book to try and give feedback (this doesn't sound right or what you are going for here). 

Have you ever picked up a game book that you were really excited about but then when you open it you are dissapointed because it is hard to read or the explainations don't make any sense? As a game designer I think you can work this out by doing play tests and having others read the drafts as you write it and taking the time to allow yourself to hash it out. Those who rush to get a new game out as fast as possible end up possibly missing something, which is a shame because the game could be even better. 

I don't think you should be denied being allowed to print a game if you don't have an editor or layout person but in this internet age there are a lot of possibilities out there to find someone. Yes it takes more time, but that time and effort could really pay off. 

I can understand how the rant rubbed you the wrong way and I'm realy glad you wrote your blog post. I hope it brings out some good comments and critiques and conversation. 

Hey there,

maybe a show with such a practical approach wasn't the best one to start listening to your podcast but I really enjoyed it a lot. It made me start roaming through the tags and looking into other episode I might like.

I really liked Ryan's thoughts on how to act or interact on the internet without hurting people more than necessary. I don't really know how it is for rpg culture / forums because I usually just read those and don't comment or participate (shame on me). But I experienced similar phenomena of hating / aching for attention in quiet some german fanfiction / original writing forums and communities.

It might be either a misconception or an horrible understatement but is it possible that people tend to get even more easily hurt when their own creativity is involved? Any opinions?

The part about mediocrity really got me thinking. The fact that, of course, one (or especially me) never knows what or whom he had in mind, made it hard to have an opinion without following the first intuition. Personal example: I can sometimes be kind of fanatic when it comes to language and its correct use. So proper editing is a big deal for me. It just seems... well... polite to me at least. The attempt to establish asynchronized communication in the best way it could be.

(Which reminds me of a bunch of friends who decided to "make their own rpg" and actually put together some beautiful ideas but transported them in text sometimes barely readable, even in their first print version..)

On the other hand things like layout and design are a completely different thing for me. Of course, a document should be set into a proper reader-friendly layout but beyond that.. I don't know. For transporting the idea or rules visual elements can be as sparse as possible. At least for me. I wonder if there is a... ranking(?) or order which comes first in designing a game (or other written creative products) on which everyone could agree?

urgh, wall of text. sry. just wanted to thanks for a brilliant episode at the beginning but it somehow went its own way ^^;

I actually do subscribe to Ryan Fucking Macklin's position on forums.  It's not the forums themselves that are toxic, they're just a product of those that frequent them.  I've seen it time and time again, the larger a forum community gets, the more that toxic element confiscates the attention of the forum community.  I've seen it too many times and have left forum communities over it.

As for the mediocrity rant, it wasn't the topic of the episode.  He got a few short minutes to speak about something that was on his mind.  I'd like to hear Ryan Fucking Macklin engage in a whole conversation to make his point and address counter-points.  As it is now we are agreeing/disagreeing with a bumper sticker statement.

I think the way Ryan Fucking Macklin addresses his internet presence is, on top of being professionally practical, reflective of someone that would rather affirm the positives in a community than promote the negatives.  Political commentators and gamers are two of the most incendiary internet cultures I've been witness to and I love the juxtiposition that Ryan Fucking Macklin places himself to those.  That philosophy is something that I really need to adopt for my own.

I think mediocrity is incredibly subjective. My best, as a new designer and author, could be sub-par to Ryan, or Lenny or John Wick or any of the big names in the industry. They may rail on it as a mediocre effort, a laughable attempt or whatever. (I don't think they would do that, I'm simply setting forth an example).

That doesn't mean it is mediocre.

The only way I can imagine that we could reliably determine what is mediocre is with publishers who have a history. If a new product is of lower quality than previous products from them, it could be mediocre. But, who makes that determination?

In the end, all a determination of mediocrity is, is someone's opinion. I know people who railed on and hate Heroes of Horror for D&D 3.5. It's my favorite supplement of all time for the much loved/hated game.

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

So, while I can understand Ryan's point, I don't think I can agree with him. It's too subjective to determine what it is, and if it's being rewarded.

@Devon - Subjectivity is a part of all creative arts, but that doesn't mean writers and painters think there's no way to judge craft and technique. Just because it's hard to figure out what's good and what isn't we shouldn't throw up our hands and say it's impossible. I don't think Ryan was intending to blast beginners. I got the impression he was more upset over people who were coasting by having really good aspects of a game that were let down by laziness in other parts -- say, a really interesting mechanic with poorly written rules that don't fully explain how to play.

@ Jen

I totally agree. However, as you will find out if you ever send anything out to people for this (or maybe you already have), most people are not good editors. Most people look at something, make a few random comments, and that is it. Nobody wants to do free editing that I have ever met, except for Peter Kovalsky who did some editing for me on Synapse but he got swept away by some real life issues near the end.

As far as friends and family go, in my experience you cannot trust those people to provide fair and constructive commentary. It is either too harsh or too lax. And a lot of those people may not be gamers, or only lightly interested gamers, without the desire to really dig into a new work.

@ Jen

Forgot to add, yes I have suffered that disappointment with a new game. That is why I am writing my own games now

Wow, great responses!

The problem with ranting without structure for a few minutes is that I don't get to consider how to frame the context. I have no beef with beginners, and in fact want to help all beginners see how to achieve with fewer connections and resources. Graham Walmsley talked about that I think in 2009 on a Voice of the Revolution episode, good stuff there.

One of the problems with any community like this is that if you call out a game that uber-fanboys love, they get irrational, like you're fucking their first born. I don't mean creators, I mean their fans. But if you want to accuse me of being passive aggressive, fine. I know I've said worse when, a couple years ago, Luke Crane said similar on a Theory From The Closet episode. I said it was ivory tower bullshit, I still kinda thing it is, but I also know why it's touchy, and why the flame war that ensues is rarely worth effort.

I'm still deciding whether or not I'm going to call out some books -- remember my thing about not talking about things I hate, because that gives them press? Well, I might break that rule on a follow-up blog post. We'll see. You could always meet me at a con and buy me a drink to find out, too.

- Ryan

And I think buying you a drink is the best idea of all, Ryan.  Welcome to RPG Crosstalk!  It's good to have you here.  I really enjoyed the interview. 

Peace,

-Troy

@Dan, I see your point. I agree that we shouldn't give up trying to critique createive efforts. It's through criticism that we, the creators, can learn and better ourselves. I'm having some internal conflict with the issue that I can't quite quantify, yet.

@Ryan I'm definitely interested in achieving with few connections. Now I need to find that VotR episode.

@Dan @Devon Maybe I'm pessimistic here but the problem with critique is that it's hard to properly phrase, communicate and take it. I see it happen on german rpg forums or rpg design forums quite often.

Either criticism that isn't helpful or well thought out; say "I read through your concern with this and that mechanic and my advice is Stop creating this system. There already is a system that is basically like yours." And a way to take criticism that discourages you to try to help any further; say "Well I'm doing it anyway and you don't get it" or "I understand your concerns but I obviously know more about games than you so I'll ignore it".

Is there any way code of behaviour or rule of thumb to give each other proper critique when it comes to games / game design that differs from.. well.. normal appropriate social behaviour (whatever that is)?

This is some great discussion everyone! I'm going to create a new topic under general discussion for the discussion on proper critique of rpgs and feedback. I think there is a lot to discuss about this in creative way with many possible answers.